I am a current attender who was raised by people who love this church but I definitely have my confusions on a few things. However, some of his employees and family were taken in by SBTS and seem to be doing ok. IMO, the church as a whole can help to regulate these things by exposing them and explaining how they do not reflect Christ at all. Mega-church Christianity with its rock bands, light shows, huge screens, and glitz reminds me more of Broadway than a church. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. Houston was saying in his statement he was only just now finding out about some of Mark Driscolls more controversial statements, and that is due to the media. He fails all or almost all the qualifications laid out for that role as outlined in the New Testament. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. And i honestly had no idea that that phrase was in there. These churches are both responsible for vetting their speakers, and they utterly failed on this one. They have a very different take on the fulfillment of prophecy that you may enjoy learning as a contrast with your own beliefs. How about when people stone you for your faith? http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, A few items: A preacher is not to be- They will promise to give you an authentic community to do life with. And shame on these preachers at these churches giving MD a platform to relaunch his church-related career. It takes at least 6 months before you start seeing things clearly. Mark begins to describe what happened with Stephen in Acts 6:8-15. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. The ones leaving arent stupid. I cant see those photos without also thinking of the images weve all seen of the impossible circumstances our hospitals are battling every day, Goddard began in a series of tweets. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. I have to disagree Gus considering you mentioned brain cells. They noted that since the pandemic began, they have taken very stringent precautions at each service, including: take temperatures at the door, fog-sanitize their auditorium, sanitize the childrens areas and common areas multiple times daily and provide masks to everyone who attends. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. I see inviting Driscoll anywhere in the same context as some dumb kid wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt. Dont miss the title of Lindells May 16, 2014 blog entry: Christian institutions are trying to express an organic Jesus in non-organic structures. Some Pentecostals or Charismatics are okay with women being preachers or teachers. Its the same game he has played. hmmm It was like my eyes were open. Many times it kept me from feeling like I was the only one who could see this stuff or understood how wrong it is. Youll see they have no standards regarding truth, salt of light. Like the guy who was in charge of SGM, he got away scot-free and is doing well for himself despite the outcry against him. their ministry grew and even people that werent christians were thankful for them. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. They want their congregations and the world at large to believe that there are no amount of misdeeds that a pastor can perform, no matter how egregious, that means they shouldnt be instantly forgiven and returned to the pulpit ASAP. At a certain level they wanted leaderless teams who would function by consensus. Over the next two Sundays he will continue to remind people to vote Yes and to take a Yes sign for their yard. It is all choreographed and it works! New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Association of Related Churches He was defended and protected by his peers and they even tried to help him plant a church here and give it street cred but his family of churches franchise is over for him and he is lucky if 50 people show (mostly SGM followers and family) up for his church in a room at the Marriot not far from where I live. your post, and this one i read on facebook yesterday: I then stood up and pointed out that 30 lines below the famous quote All men are created equal the Declaration of Independence refers to Natives as merciless Indian savages. http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/. The worship leaders are all carefully coached and choreographed on how to appear more worshipful and fake their collective ecstatic elation over being one with their maker. I used to buy into this,thinking it is such wisdom to see ourselves in the examples of scripture, until I realized that we never seem to see ourselves as the villain. Hasnt it been around long enough that either people (especially younger guys) are sick of it, or they have finally realized its harmful or obnoxious? Was that MDs evil twin Dark Miscoll who said elders who disagree with him need to be put in wood chippers or that women need to bring their men to Jesus by orally servicing them every morning whether they like it or not? Seems like the truth being covered, twisted, remade, ignored is what keeps these people in power and LTs post brings the truth as it actually is back to the forefront. When he agreed to accept an $850,000 annual pay package while other staff were being laid off due to declining offerings, was he in a fugue state, incapable of understanding what was going on? I also dont think he should work or earn profit in any manner making money off Jesus (such as selling Christian books, pod casts, site subscriptions, accepting speaking fees to appear at churches, etc). And we in the real world of Jobs & Lives have to deal with the resulting Speshul Little Snowflakes. I did disagree, however, with this one sentence. What I dont get is that those pastors dont care if they look completely dishonest in their statements. How can they do that? What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, they have something to hide. He can be forgiven. This was a new song to me. Sorry, I dont know why I wrote that, Ive always thought of you as a him. There was no light show. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. Seems odd that Robert, Tom Lane and Jimmy Evans need to be pounding their book sales so hard when they are all getting raptured in the next 3.5 years. Im so used to the megas Velcro bars where they only care about you if they can slap some Velcro on you to make you come back so you can become a tithe payer. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. May the Lord bless our search for da truth, and grant us mucho wisdom. when mercy ministries was investigated at hillsong amazingly the leader Nancy Acorn opened up shop in the u.s. and has many supporters among the christian circuit Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? Because 12 years ago Walter Salles made an awesome movie about him called The Motorcycle Diaries starring the gentle heartthrob Gael Garcia Bernal as Che. They use lots of hair gel and work on their golf tans. Christian County has unfortunately seen an overwhelming rise in COVID-19 cases over the past several weeks and a subsequent increase in the number of hospitalized residents. I think it should lie with the one who broke the trust in the first place. The movie was sooooooo good. He can darn well get used to a lower standard of living. instead i find now that the Lord uses other christians to confirm things He has shown me, instead of the Lord teaching me things that others say i should believe and me just accepting them as the word of God because the guy has a position or written a book or is promoted by other pastors. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. perhaps, assuming cunning strategy on the part of MD and Mark Demoss: *this sector of christainworld is the path of least resistance (especially since from others comments the YRR/reformed world has disowned him). paul was the most influential person in christianity after Jesus. During this pandemic we have helped thousands of people with food, financial assistance, counsel, and spiritual encouragement. We dont hear about them so much, unfortunately, because they are not so concerned with informing the world about their humility. The US pastor, who has courtedcontroversy for what has been dubbed his "more-macho-than-thou" brand of Christianity, resigned from his Seattle megachurch in October after being found "guilty of pride" as well as abusive, controlling and manipulative behaviour. mark is finally preaching more accurately who Jesus is and the fact that salvation is found in Jesus but then he goes off into marks interpretation of the bible as usual. Yes, I am familiar with Che and what he represents. I think many. Humility? and that it is ok to debate that point in public. What Im curious though is how the church (corporate) can self regulate against that in the face of the money and power, both spiritual and temporal, that types like MD help create. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . what is a person supposed to do? i want to again put a human face on what Mark Driscoll and others in Acts 29 insist on keeping free of anything but CEO Business speak and mistakes that were made. In February of 2007, Mark Driscoll preached a sermon that included raising funds for Agathos. in the first years of the organinazation they didnt do anything without consensus because they believed that if they were a group of believers the Lord would make them of the same agreement on specific issues and if they didnt reach agreement there was a reason that needed to be looked at. @ Abi Miah: They are relinquishing 10-20% of their gross income. And these leaders present themselves as one thing but are deceiving people the entire time. Did he write (with $200k ResultSource juice job) a Best-Seller on His Humility (chuckle chuckle)? The resistance is to Jesus. During this pandemic, we have helped thousands of people with food, financial assistance, counsel, and. Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. There were a number of other worship songs that roll on after this one, if these are your taste. The opposition is to Jesus. plausible they shoved that in jesus mouth, with that taste on his lips. (the death of Jesus on the cross as written in the bible is not enough, mark adds something more exciting and sickening like they shoved an a##-wipe sponge in Jesus mouth.) pastor says: Of course, the major players seem to emulate and incorporate some of the more questionable practices of each other so in a way we are ending up with a somewhat homogenous giga experience like GW having one of those Guest Central kiosks you mentioned. I want to know what is so bad about the church and why people dislike it. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. I fully understand the depression and near paralysis that comes after leaving a cult. The term was invented by Tom Wolfe back in the 70s to describe the superficial gliteratti associating with revolutionary thugs as a way to prove their bonafides. I know people who were previously baptized that jumped in to get the swag. (WARNING: Includes graphic language), American news sources didn't waste much time alerting their readers of this development. yeah, that pastors comment is kinda too scary for me to think about lol. He returned to Maryland in March 1965, when he was assigned to an Assembly of God church in Cresaptown, just south of Cumberland. Have you not spilled all your dark secrets at Freedom Ministry? Newer ones have theater seating or individual chairs. . ++++++++++++++++++. (KY3) - OZARK, Mo. Did nefarious conspirators plagiarize his books, hire Result Source and use his evil twin again to go with his wife to meet with his agents to put that $210,000 manipulation in place, all behind the real MDs back? But, as you said, there is no substitute for a work of the Holy Spirit. This can be anything from praying for people over the phone to working in the Online Campus studio. He is a draw. Mark pretty much mandated participation in weekly Life Groups plus you had to use their social media platform The City to stay connected. Thats why places like TWW are imperative. Otherwise, quit calling those 40 pastors and all those victims liars. The introduction sounded like it was coming from a caretaker role. Of course, we have yet to determine whether there has been a real change in Mark Driscoll's life. Thank you. In his case, [Pauls] trust had to be earned, for obvious reasons. If any blogger made such a vague blanket statement as this theyd be called out immediately. . There is a distinct period of time that must pass before you can really objectively address the damage that that place does. Albuquerque Blue reminded me of something about mark driscoll during the fall. But it would be encouraging if they did. Many others voiced their concerns about the images coming out of the church over the weekend, including Springfield-Greene County Health Director Clay Goddard, who said he was shocked by what he saw considering Missouri currently has more than 328,000 cases of the virus and no less than 4,358 deaths since the pandemic began. Welcome Home to Church Online! As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. What I saw was the 2 verses that I had typed on a 35 card and tacked to my bulletin board. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, Go! Whats MDs explanation for the ritual shunnings? If it is all about numbers and money it would be a wild ride for about five or ten years till it crashes. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. it is heartbreaking to have to help them get through the transfer of custody until the one can get through a treatment and be able to be around the child again. Has he asked them to forgive him? He can be forgiven. Restaurants and bars / taverns also use atmosphere teams. This is largely shielded from television audiences who only view a heavily edited 22 minute message. Yeah, these are the things that keep me from believing that MD has changed. Reverend Mark Driscoll has sinned before many witness, this had been profusely and laboriously documented, and is to be rebuked before all. @ Bridget: Plus Driscoll has to be way cheaper than Judah Smith or Carl Lentz, the current kings of radical chic. ), Odd how we often tend to read these things as definitive acvounts, when in reality, there are hints of many other things that go unmentioned. Certainly they all hire each other as guest speakers in order to pay large honorariums from tithe dollars that end up in each others personal bank accounts. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. He is a draw. It was really bad, disastrous I might even say. mode. Or (referring to Joseph) how to achieve your dreams. Additionally, Jonna Petry (who started the blog Joyful Exiles) was shunned along with the Petry children. Is to be- I present to you James River church in Springfield Missouri this past weekend. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? There has not been a frank identification of the flaw in the system that produced the horrific results. A grunge rock Lord Byron mad, bad and dangerous to know. In attempting to keep us from leaving they recruited the largest donor to Agathos (who was also a large donor to Mars Hill Church) to encourage us to stay. But over time became desensitized and swept up in group-think so as to eventually accept it as acceptable in the 21st century. Hope youll give us another try and check out some other articles. I only write the truth about Gateway in order to warn others, never to discourage anyone. i have been ousted from 6 churches already and at first i took it as me being in error and not able to understand the bible or what the Lord had called me to be like but now i am able to see that i can trust the still small voice inside and the Holy Spirit to give me understanding of the scriptures without having to run it by a pastor somewhere. The word "love" appears, Lindell said, because it would be unloving not to tell someone that when salvation is at stake. Hosted at every James River Church campus. By the way, what do you call a person who tells lies? (?) And thats just the tip of the iceberg. One of six. It seems foolish from a marketing and business view to alienate over half your customers.. The reason for this is that he wept, his remorse was written on his face for months and he still is remorseful, he didnt once make any excuse for his behavior, he accepted responsiblility and reached out to the family of the victim. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. There could be some better teaching on this but too many appear to receive their teaching from celebrity pastors who then take advantage of them. @ numo: Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.. Dont give into his deception. I wish just one person would have spoken up sooner. Do your part with the people in your life, give to your church, beyond that have a global heart for widows, orphans, the poor and those in need, I am going to ask you to support some widows and orphans in Africa, We have an orphanage, we have a villagemembers of Mars Hill have actually moved there to take care of widows and orphans.. District. your post is so right LT, the whole post, and it really needs to be said again and again. They really believe that God has anointed the leaders to lead them. or barred from the league for having too many technichal fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct and yelling at the referees for too many seasons. GW also exports as they seemed to pioneer or at least perfect the concept of having pastors write books for personal profit then when the books sell too slowly, they have the main church and all their friend churches purchase the books in bulk to give away to the congregation resulting in transferring thousands of tithe dollars to individual pastors. I dont beleive that for a moment. Thanks for that recommendation. Barnabus is the hero of this story that gets little press. ++++++++++++++++. and humility i think is something that is a mark of a true christian that cant be faked, it always looks fake when people try to do that. Is this similar to Radical Chic? vinegar is disinfectant for wiping yourself. Analogously, there are certain qualities that police forces screen for, to hopefully screen out bullies who want a uniform. was paul asking for forgiveness? The worst of all the bad these churches can do (apart from sexual assaults) is brainwashing the kids into their cult beliefs so that they will not accept the true Word of God at a later date. since we are all clergy??? Thats why every post they make against corrupt churches matters. Also, there is a difference, IMO, between forgiveness and trust restoration. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, it might be that his words and patterns of behavior, actions dont match. So I can see why some churches would want him on board. I recently darkened the doors of a very small church in another city. What a waste of a ministry! He told me he will vote against repeal. Ditto Bent Meyer who opposed the consolidation of powerful. He. Are you not voting for the candidates and issues Gateway told you to? "Homosexual sin is not the only serious sin. They just have to shamelessly scam more money in the name of Jesus. Ever heard a sermon about Slaying your giants? There is great comfort to be found in that. It was dingy and old. Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. The carpet was worn. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. This is why I said above I dont think Driscoll should even be allowed to go on speaking engagements, sell Christian books, or anything involving Christianity. The teachings of Christ are based on love and forgiveness, and I will not write off Mark as a person simply because of the things that people have said about him, a small minority of people signing a petition or statements he has made many years ago for which he has since repeatedly apologised, Houston said. Driscoll has used this vague parallels to himself many times, framing the sermon in the context of his own life with the lives of other noble characters, most notably Jesus. The worship leaders laugh about it. He explained that wide is the path refers mainly to churches posing as Christian churches (mostly for millions in profit like GW) not the fringe Christian-like churches or belief systems (like LDS). Nor to any of the other dead bodies behind the bus. But forgiveness doesnt mean the church should open itself to his abuse again no need to return him to the pulpit since he wasnt a genuine minister to begin with; there was no evidence of the call of God on his life given his dismal run as a pastor. God knows that we dont need that sort of ministry again.. I dont see him pastoring a church and I am not even sure his legal problems from the last one are over. In October, he resigned as head pastor from Mars Hill, a Seattle megachurch with a Sunday attendance of 13,000. Why would anyone seek to admire and celebrate a man who plotted to kill millions of innocent American civilians? i think that it worked quite well for Youth with a Mission for several years and then it went awry and i dont know the particulars of what happened. This was not due to the kindness of the elders (who told us we could not leave because we were under church discipline). the money that was supposed to be going to missionaries in another country had been intertwined with the general fund. So grateful others are addressing these serious problems that plague Christendom. Do my eyes deceive me? shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. I began to see him as a marketing expert, who was producing what the young Reformed, technology driven market would respond to, and then marketing it in excellent ways. Youll notice the Pentecostals elevating him are in their 50s and 60s. I have read many accounts that his nickname throughout life was el chancho (pig). It is all choreographed and it works! This one was different. Missouri church service Saturday evening. Edit: Thank you to everyone who commented. It is like anyone else that works hard to build something. The reason why I answered like that is because most of this stuff goes on because the pew sitters are not actively involved in the church operatons and are not demanding openess and transparancy of staff and leaders. I asked the mayor, specifically, how he will vote on the matter April 7. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. I dont think it is realistic. . Mark Driscoll was totally missing those things. The Weapons Of Our Warfare Are Not Carnal?. So many use Ches image as some sort of inspirational symbol. I think MDs desire to be on a stage, at this point, is a sure sign he should not be there. Ive seen desensitizing have the desired effect and its not pretty. He repeated what he has said in the past: He believes if the issue is to be addressed it should be done at the federal level. Its much harder to leave that way. Something has gone seriously wrong in Mega-Land and it aint just thinking about having MD speak at one of their conferences. Adultery, stealing, cheating, being abusive, being a drunkard can also keep you out of heaven.". I am someone special, like Jesus and Paul. I completely understand why you are so skeptical. After describing the crucifixion of Jesus, Mark Driscoll asks: Who has attacked you? (This was all before the sex sermons and book.) The man can speak pretty well and seems to fill the pews. The way I see things may be different in that I see the individuals in the Kingdom being more important than mediating organizations in the church universal. The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. This is not a measure of faith. . There is an old belief in bapto-evangelico circles that one of the criticisms that could for sure be said against certain other christian religious traditions is that they have priests and we do not, because they let the priests tell them what to do and influence them too much but in our way of doing things that does not happen. They secretly instigated men who said here come the false charges. James River Church Engaged Employer Overview 38 Reviews 63 Jobs 26 Salaries -- Interviews 9 Benefits 47 Photos 12 Diversity Follow + Add a Review Employee Review See All Reviews ( 38) 2.0 Former Employee, more than 3 years Leadership not always what they portray Mar 2, 2017 - Anonymous Employee in Ozark, MO Recommend CEO Approval I asked people who were about as famous (if that is what you call it) as him what they thought. I hope I am wrong. In the wake of this and other scandals, the Mars Hill Church collapsed. So where is the money coming from now? Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truth. The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. For those who follow celebrities, I dont, this is the church that made it into the news last year. Consider how he attained it fleecing the flock. You dont find out about some of the really bad stuff until you are pretty deep into it. 4 Ways of Discerning If You Have Left Jesus Behind. Mot only do I think Driscoll is a wolf in sheeps clothing, but I think hes opportunistic, and because being a preacher is all he knows. In my opinion Gateway is a cult not a church so they lose their Winters Bone protection status. The point of closed systems is to keep them closed. I believe they were simply behaving as their normal selves. Have you not spilled all your dark secrets at Freedom Ministry? Where David cut the fabric from Sauls garment in the cave, showing he could have killed Saul but didnt, reflects Gods desire that David not physically harm Saul. Thats why these massive megas arent likely to represent the narrow gate. His appeal, then and now, has much to do with his looks plus a perception of him being anti-establishment, which he was. rocks are flying people are shouting opposition and accusations., in christian language christians are like sheep, opponents are like wolves, alpha, saul. Lydia wrote: They knew exactly what they were buying. Do any of you who oppose Driscoll preaching or running a church again, is there a way he could ever get forgiveness from yall to do that sort of ministry again? Meanwhile, Mark Driscoll was preparing to deliver his sermon at James River Church, an Assemblies of God megachurch located in the "Show Me State" (Missouri). Is there a third way that I have overlooked? Gus, it is very naive not to take into consideration that Driscolls constant media attention did not influence the TVC response to their own problem in any way. They were perceived as mediators between the person and Christ. Mark Driscoll should not be a preacher ever again. *carefully targeting pastors who want to build an empire of their own with an easy publicity stunt (although described Christian-like so it actually sounds noble, in both marketing and in the buying pastors self-talk), @ LT: