Is that ok? Titleist does recommend no more than +/- 2 degrees from factory and you should be ok. Any more and there is a risk of the stress cracks in the hosel area (primarily cosmetic). -How much do you vary on club delivery for Angle or attack and Dynamic loft? Some get more spin, some less. I do know a typical modern club the PW has the loft of like an older blade 8 iron. I completely agree with this! Then if your wedge gaps are off you might tweak them a degree. 5 Testers Needed! Older irons can be bent to achieve better gaping and additional distance, but the distance increases will be very small. Here are the different ways fitters change the lie angle of a club: A club can either be bent to an upright position (toe higher than heel) or flat (toe lower than heel) usually in increments of 1 or 2 degrees. Not a dispute with the OP, maybe even validation, but what about head style? Using like say an Older Macgregor blade butter knife with a thin sharp leading edge on the sole if you deloft more than 1 degree or so you have a chance of digging to China. I know some pros naturally hit it higher, and some lower. Wedges: Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or-Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; PM Grind 19 58* -or-Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW IG: golfer_scott So glad this was posted. About time someone who knows what theyre talking about said what the the real deal is with loft and modern clubs. Lets assume that the launch angle with a modern-lofted set of irons is ideal. So I hit my standard 50 yard pitch with a 54* wedge. (I ran into this today.) Since such a precise hit is needed to take advantage of the lower loft, the average distance each club hits the ball tends to converge at lower lofts for less-skilled players. It can be re-bent without any adverse effect on it. Nick so, how much difference can CoG location make to the optimum loft? Still, someone has to win, and, with such dead wood, punters might smile at this opportunity to nab the winner of an event returning to its status as an opposite event expect LIV to make an offer in 2024. Lofts don't always come in 4-degree increments. You will see it often when a pro, for example, will eliminate his 4 iron from the set and they may strengthen their 5 iron a degree or two and weaken their 3 iron a degree or two to even out the gaps. This could cause them to dig at impact, and no one wants that. Will it affect offset? I highly recommend that golfers get fitted before making a large purchase on golf clubs. Machines that adjust for all hosel positions, such asMitchell Angle Machinesare accurate regardless of the offset or hosel design of the golf club. If experience still trumps explanations, simulations and printouts, print out some ebay listings there are lots of older sets with barely used 3 irons. Forged titanium models are bendable as well due to their softer titanium structure. So, I am now waiting for a major brand to market and advertise that their new, weaker lofts will add distance for most golfers. The difference after they were set to factory lofts and lie for my swing was amazing! Thanks for everybody for your help! for the better golfer, these lofts leave nothing at the bottom of the bag. Paste as plain text instead, You cannot paste images directly. Here are common ball flight issues if you are playing the wrong lie angle: Unfortunately, club manufacturing companies sometimes use different lie angles for their clubs. Getting your first putt inside three feet will greatly improve your score. LOWER COG IN NEW IRONS REQUIRES LESS LOFT A LOT OF THE TIME TO GET THE SAME DISTANCE OF OLDER CLUBS WITH A HIGHER COG. But what about the mid and low irons, yes I understand some companies make 6/7 hybrids (7 and up is very rare), but you can not really replace an 8 iron with a true hybrid. But if a high spin player gets a 15 launch and 6000 RPM with a 115 MPH ball speed with a 5-iron, then whats wrong with that? Or, is the bounce all the same? Driver: G425 LST 9on Fujikura VENTUSBlue 5S, Fairway: G425LST 3w on Fujikura VENTUSBlue 6S, G425MAX 9won Graphite Design Tour ADDI7S, Utility: KING Forged Utility Black 4 on UST RECOIL SMACWRAP, Irons: KING Forged TEC Black5-Gon Mitsubishi MMT, Wedges:ES2154& Hi Toe Raw58on KBS Hi Rev 2.0, Putter: Triple Track Double Wide White Hot, Balls: Pro V1TP5xChrome Soft Triple Track x LS. Keep the loft the same and take an extra club for the shot. I teach golf on the Eastern side of Michigan where I am the Director of Instruction for three golf courses. If the added ball speed of modern irons is not enough to achieve an ideal landing angle, I have to add loft. I do not find these to dig at all. Much of Harrison Endycotts claims were covered in the2023 Players To Followlist, but the summary is worth repeating to justify his selection this week. The concern is that all the fitting carts only have 6 irons and with the gaping on the 3, 4 and 5 irons lonely being 3* I am concerned on irons would react to my adjustments. Say you have a modern set that is 3-PW, 19*-45*. probably best to just change the shaft length), You stand tall over the golf ball when swinging, Your golf ball starts towards the right of your target (left for lefties), You hit the golf ball off the toe of the cub more often causing the clubface to open up and create push or slice. weight removed), Ball:1. Club Repair Seminar shows golfers the importance of checking the specs.. Study those players and mimic their set-up and you will take another giant step toward playing better golf. ***GIVEAWAY*** Cleveland CBX ZipCore Wedge! Just about every club that leaves the factory won't be 100% spot on for loft, manufacturing tolerances are going to throw that out. Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG356* TW grind. You can post now and register later. But if your best place for improvement is in your approach shots or play with the long clubs, you simply must work on your fundamentals of the golf swing. Not going to dig any more than normal. Still have questions? Putters have the least loft, usually from 2 to 4 degrees. Tour Preferred X or TP5x ball. Sitemap. I've bent tons of clubs. But regardless of the type of change you are trying to make, you also have to be willing to commit to it and suffer the learning period oftentimes you have to get worse (for a while) to get better (permanently). There is no worry about bending a club that was bent last year or last week. I know its different for each golfer depending on their individual characteristics but do you have rough numbers (for iron set) to be looking for in terms of launch angle, spin rate etc. But i am talking more along the lines of the bounce, leading edge, etc. Forged irons should be checked every year or 2 anyway for loft/lie. How much will bending an iron affect how it plays? Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X, In the grand scheme of things, I would say zero effect. And you are right about the irons listed, X Hot is a shockingly low launching iron and the G25 would be the exact opposite, with Rocketbladez mixed in the middle. By adding loft, those golfers achieve more ideal launch conditions, which means they carry shots farther and stop the ball faster on the green. What do you mean about not seeing any changes in your irons? I have been reading that the more offset you add it will end up more of a hook shot. (others have mentioned) I went to GG with my pops and hit the speedblade 9i for sheets and was hitting them 165-170why? Hope this Helps! What the heck are they were talking about? Might actually help on hard ground. When my first 'proper' set of clubs (MP30s) were done - at the same time as a Driver Shaft fitting - a couple were out considerably (the 6 iron had the loft of a 5!)! Driver: Charles Kelley whats in the bag accurate as of the Pebble Beach Pro-Am. After a quick gapping review we bent 2 clubs and tried those out which gave a good base to work from. That would depend on what GI head design you have and to be quite honest the only way to be sure would be to test these irons on a golf radar. weight removed), (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip | SeeMore FGP + SuperStroke 1.0PT. ENTER NOW! Machines with fixed measuring gauges will not be accurate when measuring clubs with offset, progressive offset, or face progression hosel positions. I meant decrease loft and make stronger. I believe that you can't really bend your irons too much but to accommodate I am thinking of bending my AP2s 1 degree stronger and AP3s 1 degree weaker so that I have better gaping. Brent Grantcould very well be one of the seasons fairy stories by September, having already secured his 2022/23 card with a stunning 50-foot birdie putt on the last hole of the Korn Ferry Tour Championship enough to finish 11th and sneak in. Golfers change the lie angle of a club to better their chances of hitting the center of the clubface. Will keep that in mind from now on, It is hard for some golfers to understand how irons with more loft can help them hit the ball farther,. Maybe its conceptually challenging but when all sets came 3-PW with heads the size of your pinky-toe, golfers either left their 3 iron home or just used it for low punch shots back to the fairway; back then, a well-hit 6 iron would outdistance an over-muscled 3 iron seven times out of 10. I can't say that they have kicked my 716 ap2 out for good, but for now the 716 cb are staying in the bag! Now as lower handicappers, we will probably not have our hands at impact fluctuating 3, 4 or 6 inches, but I would not say mine are within an inch of exactly the same place every time. You can be assured there is not a single successful player in the professional ranks who does not have a fundamentally sound grip on the club. Free shipping for many products! I should have made the same swing with a 9 iron, to compensate for the lie, but did not. ENTER NOW! You hit the golf ball off of the heel of the club often causing the golf ball to hook or pull, You are playing clubs too short for you (again. Now if you take some of the modern GI irons with the thick sole and rounded leading edge (Infiniti brand Assure comes to mind) you can de loft or strong loft it 3 or 4 degrees with no problem at all. The bounce on the 3-iron is already 0 degrees, so will bending the club for a stronger loft make the bounce go negative? Show Your True Colors With Mitchell Golfs Custom Color Program. This is a dumb question but were you fit for them? OP, which is it you are asking about.. making a club 2* stronger or increasing loft? I'm not so much of a digger with long irons, and I thought about getting my rogue 5i bent a degree stronger and not carry a 4. You get to replace the 4 iron thats gone with something you can get in the air. Since clubs are bent with iron bars by applying pressure on. By I know it will increase the bounce. That is a two club difference. I did the math on these numbers years ago when I had an early release and wondering why I could not hit the irons very far. Clamp the piece in so only a 1/2 inch below where you want the bend in the angle iron is flush with the top of the vise. Ping G425 Max 10.5 - Ventus Black 6X or G425 LST Ventus - Black 7X, Ping G425 Max 14.5 - Ventus Blue 7X What bounce does is keep the leading edge from digging into the ground. It just depends. Changing the lie angle of a club can help golfers more consistently hit shots off of the center of the clubface. 5-G Needless to say, some people need more bounce than others; pickers don't need much bounce but diggers do. I changed my Apex pro 19 2 degrees strong. 2023 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos, 2023 The Honda Classic - Discussion and Links to photos, 2023 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to photos, 2023 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos, 2023 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Discussion and Links to all photos, Fitness, maximum efficiency for the time spent. Yes, it would make the clubs a little 'longer' (with a lower ball flight), but it might not be worth it, especially if you already take a divot. Thats why I recommend that golfers get fit for irons on golf radar by a certified fitter who understands how loft and COG work together in iron design. The 2-degree limit is only recommended when changing the lofts on irons due to the potential effect such bends will have on the sole angle of the club. The decision wasn't about distance it was about gapping. Lower lofts will travel a bit farther and a bit lower, higher lofts will travel a bit less and fly a bit higher. High bounce irons absorb a change like this more easily. is 2 degrees enough to mess up a club? Its ball speed not loft that is increasing distance. And provided the hosel of the wood is long enough to allow the bending bar to fit over its length, metal woods can be bent to custom-fit a player. Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5, Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set. Custom Edel E-3 Putter. If you really want to improve your golf, you must define where you are losing the most strokes and start there. In the last six years, Tony Finau and Viktor Hovland both broke their maiden here, whilst after a period of personal tragedy, multiple winner, Branden Grace, bounced back to form. I draw the ball naturally so I dont want too much offset on the clubs, I think it will be easier if I just go and get some wedges to sort out the gapping issue. I was wondering if bending my irons 1 to 2 degrees strong at a golf shop will change the playability of the 712 AP2s. You may want to try searching if you need more info. Production Manager Wesley Turner: Five Years in the Bag. Another reason why stronger lofts dont always mean more distance is something I do frequently to help golfers hit the ball farther weaken lofts. I've never had a sand wedge bent. One other thing is that some clubs are designed from the factory strong lofted to begin with Taylor Made GI irons are a good example of this. Good question. Ping G425 5 wood & hybrid If its putting or greenside scoring, spend your time working on those aspects instead of beating balls on the range. I knew that bounce and loft have a 1:1 ratio but never thought that changing lie angle would affect swingweight but it makes perfect sense. Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34" -or- Rife Bimini, 34" Taking the destructive shot out of your game is key. The speed of putts is crucial. I've never had a sand wedge bent, I suppose that could be an issue but if you open the blade a bit the bounce comes back. Craig, You might as well get a distance gap before bending. Would they still be ideal? If you want to simply hit the ball further, find an iron that launches really high and spins really low, you will knuckle ball the shot a long ways, but odds are you will not be able to control yardages or stop the ball under most conditions. What if I get those numbers with a 7-iron, or a 5-iron? I truly wish customers would do their do diligence before getting fit. The incredible story behind Arnold Palmers $275,000 irons from the 1960s, OLD vs. NEW: TaylorMade Tour Preferred MC 2011 irons vs. My modern irons (Full launch monitor numbers), Legendary club designer Larry Bobka speaks on his new $599 blade irons, What are these?! Because of my forward foot was so much above my trail foot, my hands were a good 6" behind the ball, when compared to a level lie. But what I dont understand is why you would need to weaken the loft of irons 2-3* when the gap between irons is 3-4*. Mizuno irons can be adjusted to varying degrees depending on model and material type. Don't think you'd notice a difference of 2. A 1 degree lie angle change, either flat or more upright, can cause a 4-yard difference either left or right of a straight target. Epoxy Curing Times for Golf Clubs, Work Life and Shear Strength. Thanks for your advice, its been helpful. That's what I did with my 4i: took out the 95 gram KBS shaft and replaced it with a 75-gram SteelFiber 780 HLS hybrid shaft. In between, the Aussie came home fast to be 18th in Cam Smiths Australian PGA, and although he missed the cut at his home Open, sat in the top-10 after an opening 65. Display as a link instead, Great point I am a low ball hitter looking for more distance especially in my high irons. Im 62 and most GI clubs are too long even for me in their stock iteration with this progressive shaft lengths concept. You won't notice it. Titleist Response to USGA / R&A Distance Insights, Bending 716MB irons 1 or 2 degrees strong. He is also 1 of 33 TrackMan Masters in the world, and has completed thousands of successful fittings using TrackMan. ProV1x-mostly. (I ran into this today.) If you're a digger already, could make for deeper digging! That means judging any of this due to the club head alone and isolated makes no sense, we have to include the player and his delivery of the head since thats what matters for if we can / should go weaker or stronger or leave it as it is. 2. My advice would be to start by making sure the lofts are set to manufacturers specs. I do not disagree with you on the long irons Drew, we have hybrids to replace those. Sure, the top few are valid members of the PGA Tour, all with their legitimate claims in this lowly class, but we then have the likes of Chad Campbell (unranked after not being seen for almost three years) and Frank Lickliter (now outside the world top 3000) bringing up a rear lacks depth. This will reduce any penalty shots and subsequently the number of doubles-or-worse in your round. Titleist U500 3 & 4 Oban Kiyoshi Purple Tour Reserve pic.twitter.com/dNhfPEcR4F https://t.co/Talvwe7Kng. There are however a few key points that golfers need to know about changing the lie angle of their club so that they can get the most out of their club. Pasted as rich text. While you might prefer the overlap, interlock or full-finger style, the hold on the golf club is pretty much the same the upper portion of the grip has to be under the pad of the upper hand and held more in the fingers than the palm of both hands. Including me. But if it'll mess up the performance or whatnot, I'm not messing with it. To do this, simply Google, Golf Club Fitters Near Me and you will get a great list of places that will make sure you are playing the right lie angle for your game. How to Bend Angle Iron | eHow If you think about it, a flatter lie would be toe down for your swing. PING Anser 4 Hybrid 5 Testers Needed! There only seems to be one logical reason to do this and thats just in the odd situation where someone needs more bounce. They know how much torque to put on the hozzel. I already have a udi 2i and am too cheap to buy a 1i to replace it. Golfers who know this information will have a much easier time controlling their ball flight, hitting the center of the clubface more consistently. Club fitters are able to bend clubs to increase or decrease the lie angle using a loft, lie bending machine. TM M2 8.5* Graphite Design Tour AD GP 6X+ By NYonce. As a lifelong golfer, a student of the game and having made my living in the golf equipment industry for 40-plus years, I have made it a study to observe golfers of all skill levels as they try to figure out this crazy and very difficult game. Its like that distance is just not filled. Should I see any difference in 1 degree stronger irons? I realize it is hard to write to such a diverse audience, but Im going to give it my best with this post, and pose the basic two questions to each of you : If the answer to No. If the club has an abundance of bounce and/or a rounded leading edge, reducing bounce by 2* might not matter. What I was hoping from this article was proof for that a current 46* MB/CB PW doesnt go any further than the 47/48* PWs of the past. Offset degrees especially with a long iron can be a factor along with sole design. Couldn't agree more with your entire post. 2 degrees upright - Club Fitting - Team Titleist SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerLW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerXW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger steppedPutter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Reset Password Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, Tour Blue 85 X, 44" -or- Cobra Fly-Z+, Phenom NL 60 X, 44.5", 3w:King LTD, Aldila RIP Beta 90 X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X Using a club bending machine to change the angle on a golf club is among the fastest ways to improve a players ball flight. How noticeable will the difference in trajectory be and will distances change? But, as lofts are strengthened the gaps become compressed on the long end and widened on the short. A long iron doesn't have much bounce anyway since it was made to not take a big divot. But there is a lot more to it than that. I have a 2 iron bent 2 strong to 16. Here is a quick list of scenarios that might mean that you need to use a flatter lie angle in your clubs: On the flip side, here is a list of situations that might require you to get a more upright lie angle: The best way to get your loft and lie adjusted is by a professional club fitter. Not every iron or wedge can be bent. All Rights Reserved. -How much do you vary on club delivery for Angle or attack and Dynamic loft? Ping Redwood Anser- the "real deal!". This feels like an anyone week the back-nine on Sunday could be fun. Simply put, bending the iron 6.5 degrees strong wasn't an option. Your previous content has been restored. Club design of a particular club can be a factor also. I have read that it can create "diggers" is this true? Seriously. If the hosel design and manufacturing processes allow it, the lie of an iron can be bent 3-4 degrees or more with no compromise to the integrity of the head. A golf club can be bent two degrees flat when the lie angle is lowered and the heel of the club is raised to a position that is higher than the toe of the club. The fact remains that only stronger, faster swings can support lower lofts. You are also all correct in that it is a long iron. Bending Lofts Strong | Golf Monthly Tiger Woods plays his irons in weaker lofts and he doesnt seem to have any distance issues! Endycotts weakness so far seems to be the driver, and with his stats suggesting he recovers well top-15 for approaches in recorded events this non-penal track should suit. You may have heard golfers talk about how they need to use a flatter club or that they need to change their lie angle. May 23, 2016 at 04:54 PM. All data in this article is gathered from Shot Scopes database of over 140,000 golfers and in excess of 250 million shots recorded using performance tracking products such as the unique PRO LX+ laser rangefinder. Adams A12 19 - Fuji HB 80X, PXG 0311X 4 - HZRDUS Red 105 X The basic fundamentals of striking a golf ball have not changed nearly as much as golf club technology, and those fundamentals have their roots dating back a hundred years to Bobby Jones and his peers or even further. I was 50 yards out on the 3rd hole, and was in the moguls. There was only an added 2 yards with the stronger lofts of trackman. Not only does it mess with the bounce/offset, but it's only a number on the sole if the club. Plus, those superlight steel shafts in the 85-90 gram range feel like a softer flex than what is listed, probably due to the thinner steel in the shaft. would 2 degrees be too much and change the club's characteristics too much? This happens probably most frequently with wedges, when a person wants to play 3 instead of 4 wedges for example. What are you trying to achieve? Humans think theyre logical but when it comes down to it (when the wallet hits the counter), they are controlled by feelings, who they wish they could play like and what company has qualities that match their identity. 10.5 set at small - Ping G425 5 wood & hybrid Where Can You Get Your Lie Angle Adjusted, Should You Use Heavier Shafts in Wedges? Learn how your comment data is processed. Typical launch angle would improve from 13-14* to 17-18*. Editors note: This article is in collaboration with Shot Scope. Shane Lowry on the new Srixon ZX Mk II line (fairway wood, utility, ZX5/ZX7 irons). That means someone who has a ballflight thats too low, he delivers the head with less loft than needed, and by that less than the design of the head is meant to be played with, so he cant go wrong by tweaking lofts weaker. Would bending it serve the same result? Can someone please discuss the advantages and disadvantages of increasing loft on an iron by 2 degrees? Odyssey Pro #1 black An Aussie with a residence in Scottsdale, playing on a windy coastal track this is a great chance. TM TP EF Tour Issue 50* & 56*, 62* It would decrease the bounce on each club, not a good idea, as well as it would cause the ball to go farther. Yes, it is possible to bend the irons 1-2 degrees stronger, but by doing so you would be reducing the effective bounce on the clubs. Often, golfers think they need to make more birdies in order to score better or become a better golfer, when in reality it is minimizing the bad shots and bad holes that can have more impact. How accurate are the loft and lie readings of clubs straight from the manufacturer? I tried it today but I can still hit my 6i farther than my 64 degree lw. After the back-to-back top-25s, he was a sneaky play at a long price for the Honda, but was never comfortable, withdrawing during the event with sinus issues. It is hard for some golfers to understand how irons with more loft can help them hit the ball farther, and this is understandable. I am wanting to bend my 5-PW one degree stronger and my 4 irontwo degrees stronger to fit better with my wedges and hybrid golf club. Now I learned to shape the flight high and low at any given moment. Haven't registered for Team Titleist yet? December 27, 2014 in Club Making/Repair & DIY Projects. I'm curious what effect bending the irons 1 or 2 degrees strong would have on the irons playability. 759 Decided to get lofts and lie's double checked on my irons for peace of mind and following a gap check session get them bent 2 degree strong to the original manufacturer loft spec. If so why mess with perfection. I know for people with slower swing speeds these crazy lofted, ultimate SGI irons are perfect. Routinely, I notice longer than standard 85g shafts with these sets. Check out our video: how-to bend your clubs on a Mitchell Golf Angle Machine:Get Bending! High bounce irons absorb a change like this more easily. Hi! From my observation of thousands of golfers of all skill levels, far too many are deficient in the fundamentals, starting with the grip, and then to the set-up and only then to the swing motion. Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood, Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use. Late to the party but I was just searching this topic and saw your post, I just bought an old set of mizuno's that are bent 2* strong for the exact same reason as you stated above. Bending 716MB irons 1 or 2 degrees strong - Club Fitting - Team Titleist Good info to pass along regarding COG. And visa versa, if the original bounce is low and/or the club has a sharp leading edge, the reduction in bounce may have a significant impact on playability. But loft is a much more important factor in fitting. Seems that the article could have suggested that for higher swing speed players, the stronger lofts and COG location is necessary to not have the ball shoot straight up. Currently I play a set of old-school Ping Eye 2s, which I love, but I want the benefits of modern irons and forged heads. Instead, I will take Novak at slight odds-on in his three-ball against Scott Brown and Arjun Atwal. Another point regarding GI/SGI clubs that I would love to see a fitter touch on is shaft length. Your previous content has been restored. So to get the most performance out of each iron, for these low ball hitters, we need to add loft. PING Forged wedges You can post now and register later. In fact, a sound, fundamental hold on the club is the first step in setting up for a technically sound golf swing. Thanks! If you change your AOA and go 2* steeper, both delivered loft and bounce is reduced by 2* ***GIVEAWAY*** Cleveland CBX ZipCore Wedge! Assuming you are not altering the trajectory due to the conditions. Well this article outlines a variety of statistics which will help you pinpoint which areas of the game you are above or below average. *Performance average removes all outliers good and bad, to give a distance based on how far a well struck shot will go. KBS even notes it in the swing speed recommendations for their different model shafts, as their very lightweight steel shafts are about a full flex softer frequency than the standard weight counterpart.